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When reading Ovids telling of Pyramus and Thisbe I noticed it had similar themes as A Midsummer Night’s dream. In both stories there seemed to be a main conflict between star crossed lovers who wish to be together but cannot due to family matters. For example in Pyramus and Thisbes case Ovid states “- but with time, love grows. / Theirs did- indeed they wanted to be wed,/ but marriage was forbidden by their parents” (111). Similarly in MND, Egeus (hermias parent) states “As she is mine, I may dispose of her; Which shall be either to this gentleman, / Or to her death, according to our law Immediately provided in that case” (1.1.42-45). In both scenarios two lovers cannot be together because a parent will not allow it. Another similarity i noticed between the two stories is they both contained a plot where the two lovers devise a plan to run away together. In MND, Lysander and Hermia decide to run away together when Lysander states “If thou lovest me, then steal forth thy father’s house tomorrow night ; And in the wood, a league without the town ( where i did meet thee once with helena to do observance to a morn of may) there i will stay for thee” (1.1.163-169). Here Lysander and Hermia have plans to meet up in the woods and flee to live new lives together. Similarly in Ovid’s telling of Pyramus and Thisbe he states “then in low whispers – after their laments- those two devised this plan : they’d circumvent their guardians’ watchful eyes and, cloaked by night, in silence, slip out from their homes and reach a site outside the city ” (112). Here Ovid is telling the story of how Pyramus and Thisbe are planning on running away from home and meeting up somewhere outside the city.
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We talked about this a bit in class but the quote you identify illustrates it well: I think there’s a legitimate question about whether Pyramus and Thisbe are “star-crossed.” Here, “with time” love grows (not from fate or destiny). Their first encounters were due to luck (they happened to live near each other). Can we rightly call this story “fate,” then?
We often talk about love in epic ways: true love, light of my life, my better half, etc. These superlatives obscure a murkier truth. Half of marriages end in divorce and about a quarter of those are the direct result of infidelity. Then of course there’s all the things people do to each other outside of marriage…
Perhaps there is a warning to people not to think of love as something epic and so they won’t run around trying to kill themselves when it works out poorly!
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<p class=”p1″>After reading Pyramus and Thisbe, it was basically the story of Romeo and Juliet, specifically the ending since the boy kills himself first in both stories, assuming the girl is dead. But in comparison to A Midsummer Night’s Dream, I feel like this story actually supports some of the key points we discussed today in class pertaining to Hermia and Lysander’s view on love. For instance, one main point that Hermia and Lysander make is that true love always faces obstacles, such as being in different social classes, a large age gap, or having a parent pick your spouse (1.1.132-140). Pyramus and Thisbe actually encounter one of these obstacles: “Indeed they wanted to be wed, but marriage was forbidden by their parents” (pg 111). I think both Shakespeare and Ovid take the stance, at least for these characters or in these excerpts, that true love is fleeting and not easily earned. For Hermia and Lysander, Egues does not approve of Lysander and has picked Demetrius instead. For Helena, Demetrius is supposedly in love with Hermia and is to wed her. For Pyramus and Thisbe, their parents forbid them from marrying, but an even greater hardship stands in love’s way when they both commit suicide. In essence, true love never comes easily to anyone, and you have to try and overcome its obstacles to even experience it at all.</p>
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I wonder if Hermia and Lysander are making an argument for censoring books!
I don’t really mean it, but it does show how people are shaped by the culture they consume. If you live on a diet of Rom Coms (not judgement), you’re predisposed to see life through a certain lens (and perhaps even use some of that vocabulary “Prince Charming”, etc.). Cynical people can like Rom Com’s, too, but their cynicism reflects their acknowledgement that the world doesn’t live up to their ideal.
What sort of stories are more “real” and why don’t we watch those? Is MND “more real”?
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Pyramus and Thisbe is the show performed by the commoners in the play of A Midsummer Night’s Dream, and for good reason. The story of Pyramus and Thisbe (although the plot is also strikingly similar to Romeo and Juliet) is very similar in idea to A Midsummer Night’s Dream. The two couples of lovers who are forbidden to be together- Lysander and Hermia, Pyramus and Thisbe- both are under the impression that they are in true love with each other. This is shown in Hermia and Lysander’s case, where Hermia talks about her and Lysander’s love in the context of true love everywhere, “If then true lovers have been ever cross’d/It stands as an edict in destiny” (1.1.150-1). This is also shown in Pyramus and Thisbe’s case, where Thisbe proclaims as she is about to kill herself to be with Pyramus, “do not deny to us-united by true love…one same tomb”(pg. 115). Both pairs of lovers claim to be in true love with each other, and this is why both stories contain the theme of “true love” and the question of what it really entails. While reading both stories, at first glance, it seems as though the two couples drastic actions only prove that they really do love each other; however, while conducting deeper analysis, it is harder to say if the pairs actually are in true love, or if they just think they are. Drastic actions do not imply true love, and in my opinion, the actions these characters take show more that there is a strong spark and lust between them, but not necessarily love. Doing sudden and exaggerated things for one another at the beginning of their relationships could just be a result of the obsession and attachment that comes with the beginning of a new and fun relationship.
Another factor that both stories contain that makes the reader question the true love of the couples is the forbidden nature of the relationships. Both couples are forbidden to be together because one or both of their parents will not let. Therefore, the couples have limits on how long they can see or talk to each other because their parents oppose the relationship. Pyramus and Thisbe are forced to talk through a crack in the wall, and Lysander “hast by moonlight at her window sung”, has to come to Hermia’s window at night to speak to her (1.1.30).Human nature is to want what one cannot have, and the teenagers, especially being young and impressionable, want what they cannot have. Their desire to resist authority and obtain control of their own lives and of forces they cannot control is maybe contributing to the strength of their attraction to each other. They think they are in true love because they are facing difficulties, but the difficulties make them want to be together even more. The fact that each couple runs away from the populated town to a deserted, empty area where they have their own sovereignty demonstrates the desire to gain control over their lives and choices.
Both stories have similar plots, both which show different factors that may be contributing to the facade of “true love” for each set of characters. The reader thinks about true love and what it really means as a result of reading the different lengths each couples goes to for their “true love”. I think it is worth it to question what really is making the couples feel this way for each other, because only once examining situational factors can you gain the full picture of the relationships between characters. -
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As I was reading Pyramus and Thisbe from Ovid’s Metamorphosis, I have come to the understanding of true love. Pyramus and Thisbe are very similar to Hermia and Lysander. Both of these Shakespearean couples truly exemplify what it means to be in “true love”. “Theirs did- indeed they wanted to be wed, but marriage was forbidden by their parents” (pg.111). This quote is explaining that fact that even though the loving couple wants to get married, there is something in the way of this. The fact that their families do not like each other makes their relationship very complicated. They have to talk through a wall because they can’t see each other in person without their parents getting upset. In “A Midsummer Nights Dream” by William Shakespeare, we see there is something very similar that happens between Hermia and Lysander. Egeus responds to Theseus and says, “Full of vexation come I, with complaint against my child, my daughter Hermia. Stand forth, Demetrius. My nobly lord, this man hath my consent to marry her” (1.21-26). Egeus, the father of Hermia, does not want Lysander to marry his daughter because he believes he used to play tricks on Hermia, so he is sure that Demetrius is the right one for her. I also believe that both couples in both of the plays have similar wishes yet don’t end up fulfilling them. They both have the same wish to run away and be together but there is something that always happens and gets in the way of their wishes and plans. I suspect that all four of these characters have bad morals by going behind their families backs and wanting to get married even though their families do not approve. As Lysander says, “Or if there were a sympathy in choice, war, death or sickness did lay siege to it, making it momentary as a sound” (1. 1.21-43). This quote explains how both Lysander and Hermia share the same feelings that if any obstacle came towards their way, they would get through it for each other since they are truly in love. This compares to Pyramus and Thisbe when the play states “They had no confidant- and so uses signs: with these each lover read the other’s mind: when covered, fire acquires still more force” (Ovid 111). This quote is explaining that both Pyramus and Thisbe were so in love that they were able to know what each other was thinking. To conclude, I think that both Pyramus and Thisbe, and Lysander and Hermia, share many of the same themes and goals. They are both true lovers that want to continue life together but is always interrupted with various complications.
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The “momentary as a sound” part is more tragic, though. The point isn’t that they will do anything, it is that they will do anything knowing their love will be momentary. It’s that David Bowie lyric “We can be heroes, just for one day!” The tragedy, perhaps, is that they are so young and won’t ever know that you get over things. Would we care as much if these kids were in their 80s?
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While reading Ovid’s telling of Pyramus and Thisbe, I noticed that it is very similar to Romeo and Juliet and Lysander and Hermia’s love. In Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night’s Dream, the “star cross lovers” faced strong oppositions from their families who tried to destroy their love. Pyramus and Thisbe are very similar to Lysander and Hermia. As Lysander said in MSD, the love he and Hermia shared can be considered “true love,” which can’t be felt unless there were obstacles to fight through (Act 1, Scene 1, line 141-148). Some of the obstacles that were faced in both stories were physical, the Athens law that Egeus had control over what was his (Hermia) and the wall in Ovid’s telling. Egeus used the law of Athens as a consequence if she did not marry Demetrius and chose Lysander. Because of this law, Hermia was physically not able to marry Lysander unless she was willing to face death or a be nun all her life. In Ovid’s version, it was not so serious, but the wall was a force that blocked Pyramus and Thisbe from kissing or exchanging physical contact (P112). This was not death, but it was one of the main obstacles in their relationships. In MSD, Lysander gave specific obstacles in which true lovers face. He names one obstacle as “to choose love by another’s eyes” (Act 1, Scene 1, line 140). Both love stories had faced that specific obstacle where the parent(s) is the ones forcing them to love and wed a person by their decision. After noticing all of the similarities, I came to the conclusion that maybe Ovid is trying to express the idea that true love is real if they face obstacles that put them on the edge, but no matter how intense things get, they won’t give up because that is how you know it is worth it. Eventually both love stories involved the lovers running off to “rebel” and do something about those who are challenging their love. In MSD, Lysander and Hermia run off to get married and commit their love to each other. In Ovid’s telling, Pyramus and Thisbe run off to commit their love as well, but Pyramus ends up killing himself after he thought Thisbe was murdered. Thisbe, who was in love, decided that the only way to show her love to Pyramus was to kill herself as well because “the death we met together” (P115). That was the ending obstacle faced in the story that showed true love.
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I think it’s important that Pyramus doesn’t think Thisbe was murdered, but killed by a wild animal. More importantly (and in contrast to Lysander and Demetrius), Pyramus holds himself responsible. He suddenly realizes he should have planned better (too late!). There’s a comic tragedy here, for me, that the careful person would have been able to think about this (don’t go into the woods without a weapon if there are lions!), a careful person likely wouldn’t have decided to run away. Does that make the more careful person less romantic? Or is romance also a kind of foolishness?
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Pyramus and Thisbe talks about two people who lived right next door to each other who were lovers but forbidden to be together by both parents or because of status. Thus the reason why Pyramus and Thisbe are forced to talk through a crack in the wall. Both of these works share the theme of true love especially when Thisbe says “I call upon his parents and mine; I plead for him and me–do not deny to us-united by true love…one same tomb”(pg. 115). Thisbe is so in love with Pyramus she is willing to kill herself in order to be with him forever. In my opinion it seemed a bit exaggerate for Pyramus to assume Thisbe was mauled by the lioness just by her abandoned shawl and to drastically strike himself. It doesn’t seem like their in love but more as obsessed and impulsive because they THINK they are in love and do anything to keep it that way. Both of these are similar in plot when both couples make up a plan to run away together and decide to meet in the woods. Like in A Midsummer Nights Dream there is a main theme that Lysander and Hermia depict which is that that true love always faces obstacles and if faced means they are truly in love or so these two couples think . Overall, Love is complicated to understand and filled with obstacles. Its all in your mind, an illusion, which we end up believing even if it may not be true.
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Pyramus and Thisbe have many similarities to Hermia and Lysander in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. Although their stories aren’t exactly the same, they relate a lot to each other. Both stories try to depict true lovers and what that actually really means. Hermia and Lysander explain their definition of try love in A Midsummer Night’s Dream 1.1.136-155. They explain that true love isn’t easy and there are many challenges that come along with it. This is exactly how I would describe Pyramus and Thisbe’s true love. Their parents hate each other and therefore don’t approve their relationship. This is extremely hard for Pyramus and Thisbe especially because they live so close to each other yet they can’t see each other. They go into a lot of details about the wall between their houses. They say, “The wall their houses shared had one thick crack… in all these years, no one had seen that cleft; but lovers will discover everything.” Hermia and Lysander’s description of true love explains that lovers are dedicated to each other and really put their all into the relationship. Pyramus and Thisbe did everything they could to see be with each other. They came up with a whole plan to meet up outside the city. Ultimately, they end up killing themselves for each other. Pyramus kills himself first and when Thisbe sees this, she goes ahead and kills yourself as well. I think both Pyramus and Thisbe and A Midsummer Night’s Dream have a lot in common but the overall theme I found most similar throughout is that true love is very hard and comes with many obstacles and challenges but if you’re really in love, you will do anything for the other person.
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It is not a coincidence that Shakespeare chose “Pyramus and Thisbe” as the play to be performed by the commoners in A “Midsummer Night’s Dream”. These two plays seem to have a lot in common. For starters, both plots contain a pair of star-crossed lovers whose parent(s) are preventing them from being together. In “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, Egeus forbids his daughter, Hermia from marrying Lysander, as it states, “Stand forth, Demetrius. My noble lord, this man hath my consent to marry my daughter Hermia. Stand forth, Lysander…this man hath bewitch’d the bosom of my child” (1.1, page 2, lines 24-27) and in “Pyramus and Thisbe” both Pyramus’s and Thisbe’s parents also forbids them from getting together, as it states, “indeed they wanted to be wed but marriage was forbidden by their parents” (page 111). Their passion for each other overpowers their parents will and each pair of lovers decide to run away. It is interesting how in both plays the lovers run away to the woods where something very unexpected ends up happening. In “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, Lysander is placed under a spell that causes him to fall in love with Helena, as it states, “ these vows are Hermia’s. Will you giver her o’er?..” (3.2, page 44, line 130) and in “Pyramus and Thisbe” both lovers end up committing suicide because they cannot imagine life without the other, as it states “Pyramus..cried out ‘Now drink my blood, too’” (pages 113-114) and “she placed the dagger’s point beneath her breast then leaned against the blade, still warm with her lover’s blood” (page 115). That also brings us to another similarity between the two plays and that is that Hermia was also willing to die rather than live a life without her lover. The only difference is that in “Pyramus and Thisbe” both lovers are willing to die, but in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” Hermia is willing to give up her life, yet we cannot say the same about Lysander.
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The deep connections these stories share, if anything, highlight for me the absurdity that this is the play the mechanicals choose to perform at a wedding!
There’s some reasonable scholarly agreement that Shakespeare likely wrote this play to honor an actual aristocratic wedding, so it very likely would have been played in a hall to an audience just as the amateurs do in Act V. It makes the choice even stranger!
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There is an obvious connection between the two love stories that make them relatable. There is a reason why Shakespeare chose to mention Ovid’s Pyramid & Thisbe in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. The themes of both Pyramid & Thisbe and Lysander & Hermia are as follows: The couple falls in love, they didn’t choose the love, they just “fell” in love. The parents get involved and decide that they don’t want that boy for their daughter. The daughter rebels and the rest is history. Both stories follow the same theme. This is the symbolism in Shakespeare mentioning Ovid’s story. In both stories, the couple finds their separate lives worth dying for their significant other. On page 115, lines 15-17, Thisbe says “I plead for him and me- do not deny to us-united by true love, who share this fatal moment- one same tomb”. This relates to Hermia & Lysander’s love because Hermia repeatedly says that she would rather be dead or she would rather be a nun that not be with Lysander. I can’t determine how “true” this love is (in both stories). But I could tell right off the bat, that if they’re both willing to die for their significant other, then the love is definitely strong. In both stories, they have strong feelings for one another which creates this relentlessness in holding on to each other.
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Pyramus and Thisbe from Ovid’s Metamorphosis has more in common with The Midsummer Night’s Dream by William Shakespeare then just the reference within the play. In both Ovid’s and Shakespeare’s play, the young lovers are forbidden to be with each other and so they run away from the public to marry defying their parent(s) anger. Shakespeare and Ovid share similar ideas of true love in their plays, where at least one partner needs to be placed in front of deaths path. In Ovid’s story Thisbe is faced by the lioness who almost ate her, while, in Shakespeare’s play it is Hermia who is paying for her love by risking her own life. The characters in the play define these harsh moments as signs of true love, such as Lysander in Shakespeare, “Ay me! for aught that I could ever read, / Could ever hear by tale or history, / The course of true love never did run smooth” (Shakespeare 1.1.132-134). In other words, Lysander is stating that Hermia having her life placed on trial for defending their love makes it true because it’s a harsh sign of life that shows them how much they or at least she cares for them. While in Ovid’s play, Pyramus states, “[…] Now this same night/ will see two lovers lose their lives: she was/ the one more worthy of long life […]” (Ovid 113). This basically means that by Pyramus taking his own life for his believed to be dead Thisbe, their love is true because they would die together attempting to have fought for their true love. This is the same reason why Thisbe takes her own life away once she realizes her Pyramus has killed himself for her. These two plays have tragic events happen because in the character’s eyes it’s seen as signs or obstacles of true love.
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<span style=”font-weight: 400;”>The ending of “Pyramus and Thisbe” is ironic that the lovers were end with suicide due to the tragic circumstances. The unfortunate ending is an example of a star crossed lover that they never will end together. Either they may meet together, but it will be the last time they see each other. The theme that appears in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” and “Pyramus and Thisbe” is love. Love makes the couples meet together, but love also causes the beginning of problems. The views of love in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” is “ The course of true love never did run smooth”. (1.1.134) This piece of textual evidence demonstrates the views from Lysander and Hermia that true love always has troubles to stay together. They believe without the difficulties, it can’t prove the existence of true love. The examples provided in the play that true love may face the different social status, the age difference or parent perspective of the children’s future spouse. These factors will not be the problem as long as the lovers believe what they do is worth the value of love. The view of “Pyramus and Thisbe” is they are willing to do anything to stay together, even death can’t separate them apart. “I’ll follow you in death.” (Pg115) This piece of textual evidence demonstrates that destiny separate the star crossed lover apart, but Thisbe’s love will not disappear through the death of Pyramus because she will follow his path. Both of play is similar that the parent disagrees with the marriage of the lovers. The moral that both lovers share is similar that they believe nothing can stop them to love each other. The lovers’ solutions are to escape to the forest because they believe there will be no other factor to interfere with their love. In the tale of history, the forest is the place that dangerous things will occur. This concludes both views are similar that true lovers never comes easy together, but nothing is impossible for the true lover to overcome all the obstacles.</span>
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After reading both “Pyramus and Thisbe” and “A Midsummer Nights Dream” there happened to be a lot of similarities between the two lovers in each reading. One such similarity that can be drawn from both stories is that the lovers are denied to see each other due to a family member. In “Pyramus and Thisbe” it’s both the families that forbid them to wed. (Metamorphosis 111) While in “A Midsummer Nights Dream” it’s only Egeus, Hermia’s father who will not let them wed each other. (Shakespeare 1.1.22-45) Another similarity that can be drawn from both stories is that in both the lovers disobey their family’s and run away to be with each other. after this point, Metamorphosis takes a more depressing approach similar to “Romeo and Juliet” and kills both lovers because they aren’t able to live without each other. What I noticed was that both Shakespear and Metamorphosis have a similar idea when it comes to love. They both involve the lovers going out of there way and overcoming obstacles to see each other. Most importantly in each story, the characters share similar morals, which are, no one can tell me who I can or cannot love.
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When reading Pyramus and Thisbe, there were many relatable connections to A Midsummer Night’s Dream. The characters in both pieces had similar circumstances with family opposing the notion of a relationship between two lovers. Egeus demonstrated his opposition to the relationship by trying to get Hermia to marry Demetrius instead of Lysander, her lover. Meanwhile, the families of Pyramus and Thisbe were in conflict and the lovers “indeed they wanted to be wed, but marriage was forbidden by their parents,” (Ovid 111). Another part that I found similar was the crack that Pyramus and Thisbe used to whisper love to each other and when Egeus mentioned that Lysander went to Hermia’s window at night where he gave her gifts and spoke of love poems to her. Moreover, the passion of the lovers in both texts encourages them to run away from their families and elope as Lysander and Hermia go to the forest at night, planning to run away, while Pyramus and Thisbe intended to meet under the mulberry tree at night. Additionally, the resolve of the lovers’ passions allowed them to accept the tragedies they would face. For example, Hermia resolved herself to become a nun if her marriage to Lysander wasn’t accepted as she stated “I will yield my virgin patent up Unto his lordship…My soul consents not to give sovereignty” (1.1.80-82). However, the same cannot be said for Lysander as he doesn’t speak to Theseus in an attempt to get him to accept the lovers’ marriage or offer to sacrifice everything like Hermia. Pyramus resolved himself to his death when he saw Thisbe’s bloodstained shawl and he proceeded to kill himself, intending to join her in death since he thought she died while Thisbe found the corpse of Pyramus and decided to follow him in death as she killed herself too. Such was the power of their love that they decided to stay together no matter what happened, even if it meant death.
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Why does Pyramus kill himself? Does he think he’ll be with her in death? Does he say that?
Thisbe does, but Thisbe actually sees a dead Pyramus. She assumes him to have been killed by someone (she doesn’t realize he killed himself). You might imagine that she’s the more romantic of the two. Pyramus just blames himself and wants to make a big gesture. One might even suggest he died of an acute testosterone overdose.
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Unoriginal Shakespeare
Shakespeare may not be all that unique in his storytelling as we have been been praising him around the world for hundreds of years. Pyramus and Thisbe looks like a shorter, less thematically complicated Romeo and Juliet. The idea of “star-crossed” lovers for Pyramus and Thisbe was repeated in Romeo and Juliet and perhaps in the characters of MND. Hermia and Lysander claim to be “star-crossed lovers” patiently enduring through their troubles as all other couples in true love must do. They have gone through the stages of a star-crossed lovers fairytale. Hermia’s father disapproves of Lysander and wants her to marry another man. Her family will not allow her to marry who she loves (without the calling into question if it is true love since they’re young and the father is convinced Lysander tricked Hermia). Stage one was family disapproval and was fulfilled; stage two is devising a plan, escaping home at night and planning to meet outside of town. Lysander and Hermia and Pyramus and Thisbe did plan this together. But to parallel and perhaps add complexity to this, Helena also did plan for her and Demetrius to meet outside of town, although it was not mutual. Stage three involves some resolution where the lovers are denied their desire by some complication or tragedy. Pyramus assumed Thisbe dead after seeing her bloodied scarf (page 113), which all ended in a double, mis-matched timed suicide like in Romeo and Juliet. However to compare to MND, we are not far enough to know and since there are many more characters and it is a comedy not tragedy, we can assume in this play the resolution will be far complicated.
Pyramus and Thisbe succumb to the dangers of “forbidden love”. This forbidden love is also in MND. In Ovid’s story, we lack the luxury of details to know why, especially since they each live next door and grew up together. In MND, Hermia is to obey her father because he is her father and should marry whoever he says. That is that. We have no other love triangles or troubles besides the forbidden love and then unfortunate timing in Pyramus and Thisbe but in MND we are able to compare Hermia and Lysander’s love to other characters like Helena and Demetrius, Titania and Oberon, and Theseus and Hippolyta. They are all experiencing trouble in lover’s paradise even though Hermia and Lysander are convinced their trouble is because its “true love”. The theme of forbidden love must be so often written about because there must be an importance in the role of family and justice or the law. In each story, the family is central in deciding the children’s fate and path in life with who they are to marry. Law and justice is sometimes harsh like how Egeus asked for “the ancient privilege of Athens, as she is mine, I may dispose of her” (A1S1L41-42). Law was important back then; rules were to be followed without hesitation or deliberation. Each author felt it important enough to emphasize what the parent’s believe to be right and the disobedience of the young loves to their parents wishes. There are high prices to pay for disobedience, for Hermia its death or life as a nun (A1S1L86-89), for Pyramus and Thisbe it became death and for our famous Romeo and Juliet as well. It makes the audience pity the young ones well thinking, “If they had only listened to their parents”. It emphasizes the importance to staying true to your family and following orders. The morals in stories highlight the morals in society for those times.
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Shakespeare wouldn’t even use the word “original” the way we do. We know this because the word is used in the play.
Titania tells Oberon that all the bad weather and storms has been a result of their fighting (they are nature spirits, after all). To conclude, she says “We are their parents and original” (2.1.120). By “original” she means “origin.”
In Shakespeare’s time, if something was “original” it was the way it had always been since the beginning of time, or the “origin.” It’s not a way we use the word now where we use it to mean something that is novel and new.
The impact of this is profound. In Shakespeare’s time they valued someone who could tell the same story in a new way and make you think about it differently. Shakespeare’s originality is precisely the complexity he brings to MND and ROM that doesn’t exist in the source material (although I’d argue the source material is also pretty complicated–brevity can be deceptive!).
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One particular theme that both plays share is this idea of the woods being a place where there is secrecy and distance from any authoritarian control. In Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Lysander and Hermia plan to meet in the woods before running away from Athens together (I.1.165-168.) Similarly, in Ovid’s Metamorphosis, Pyramus and Thisbe devise a plan to”slip out of their homes and reach a site outside the city…at Ninus’ tomb…beneath a tree in darkness.”(lines 46-51) This place that both couples plan to meet at is dark and mysterious where anything can happen. However, that does not stop them from pursuing their “forbidden love” and leaving everything behind in order to be together. That being said, it is somewhat foreshadowed that there will be obstacles that will get in their way. In the love story of Pyramus and Thisbe, this setback appears in the form of a lioness who makes it seem as though she killed Thisbe. When Pyramus finds her bloodstained shawl, he assumes that his one true love is dead and makes the choice to end his own life as well. Ironically, she then discovers his dead body and kills herself to finally be united with him in death. In comparison, the impediment that the lovers, Hermia and Lysander, face is a blurred reality due to a magic flower. When Puck sees Lysander and Hermia sleeping separately in the woods, he assumes that they are Demetrius and Helena, the Athenians that Oberon was referring to, and puts the magic flower dust on sleeping Lysander’s eyes. The irony is clear when Lysander wakes up and—the first person he sees being Helena—thinks that he is in love with her. Helena thinks that Lysander is teasing her and runs away while he ditches Hermia who is fast asleep and chases after Helena. In both of these plots, the couple who wants to run away from home in order to be together does not follow a smooth road to their destiny. Whether it be in death or in reality, the road to being united with the one you love never appears to be easy(at least not in these two works.)
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Your discussion of the the forest reminds me of a musical by Stephen Sondheim called “Into the Woods” (Disney made a film version not long ago with a number of famous people). It also plays on the connection between the forest as a place to go… it’s outside order but also where you go to restore order (remove curses, find princes, kill wolves) etc. There are actually a lot of similarities between some of the fantasy elements in both plays and the real life relationship drama.
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There are several themes that appear consistently in both “Pyramus and Thisbe” & “A Midsummer Night’s Dream.” The most obvious, in my opinion, is the theme of forbidden love. In “Pyramus and Thisbe,” Ovid is very clearly sympathetic to the story of the two lovers. This is seen especially in the last stanza of the story, where Thisbe cries out while grieving for Pyramus. Her grief is sharp and heartbreaking, making the reader sympathize for her as well. Similarly, Shakespeare seems sympathetic to the case of Hermia and Lysander, who are the forbidden couple in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream.” At first it doesn’t necessarily seem like it, because Theseus argues against Hermia’s plight in a way that puts her opinions beneath her father, Egeus’. However, once the conversation between Hermia and Lysander devising their escape is revealed, it makes it clear that the audience/reader is meant to sympathize with the couple (SI, AI, 132-155.)
Another theme prevalent in both stories is escape. Both pairs of couples attempt to escape their overbearing families in order to live happily in love together. In both instances, the escape is portrayed as the happy ending for the couples, which means the reader is hoping for their success. Interestingly, both of them plan to escape to the forest, which brings forth another shared theme of nature. Additionally, it is also nature that seems to be the doom of both couples, with the lioness resulting in Pyramus & Thisbe’s deaths, and Cupid’s flower resulting in Hermia and Lysander’s split.
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After reading both passages and breaking down the texts, “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” and “Pyramus and Thisbe” are similar in many ways. In a similar way both Hermia and Lysander and Pyramus and Thisbe think they are in love. Breaking down the passage in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” we learn Hermia’s and Lysander’s definition of what they believe what “true love” is, they believe true love is when two people face many obstacle “Or if there were a sympathy in choice, war, death, or sickness did lay to it, making it momentary as a sound ,…” (1.1 141-144) They believe true love isn’t always easy and that it is unstable, while Pyramus and Thisbe as believe that “true love” can be hard that sometimes it can lead to death if it needs to “do not deny to us-united by true love, who share this fatal moment-one same tomb.” (115) . Another factory that is similar in both passages is that they are both star-crossed lovers. In “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, we know that Hermia and Lysander are in deep love but can not be together because Hermia’s father, Egeus wants her to marry Demetrius, ”Stand forth, Demetrius. My noble lord, This man hath my consent to marry her.” ( 1.1 24-25) while on the other hand Pyramus can’t be together because it is forbidden by their parents, “-Theirs did- indeed they wanted to wed, but marriage was forbidden by their parents” (111) Even though both couples parents did not let them interact with one another they found ways to communicate because they believed their love is so strong for any obstacle put in their way. Pyramus and Thisbe would communicate through a crack on their wall, “The wall their houses shared had one thin crack” similar to Hermia and Lysander in which they only seed each other at night “Thou hast by moonlight at her window sung…” (1.1, 3o) It is interesting how in both texts the lovers consider death as an option to show how much they truly love each other. Hermia chose death after her father gave her the option to marry Demetrius, die or become a nun she considers death. They both as work out plans to be together, Hermia and Lysander plan to run away to the woods while Pyramus and Thisbe really do kill themselves because they believe their love is too powerful “With these words she places the dagger’s point beneath her breast, then leaned against the blade still warm with her dears lover’s love.” (115) After reading Pyramus and Thisble I wonder if Hermia and Lysander end up taking a similar route like Pyramus and Thisble and kill themselves to prove that they are both in real love.
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Pyramus and Thisbe is a story about star crossed lovers, who similarly to Lysander and Hermia in a Midsummers Night Dream are struggling to be together. Simiarly to Hermia and Lysander, Paramus and Thisbe” devised this plan: other as they wandered separately a site outside the city. Lest each lose in silence, slip out from their homes and reach their guardians’ watchful eyes and, cloaked by night” (Oved, 112). Both couples decided that their love was too strong to keep it quiet an pretend it does not exist. They both ran away from their homes to truly proclaim their love for each other, also with the hopes of being together for a life time. Even though their love is very strong, I don’t necessarily agree running away from home and eloping is the right way to go about your love. Sometimes parents do know best. Not that they are wrong or that they aren’t truly in love, but in certain situations a parent can be right despite all old tales. Every parent wants the best for their child, and obviously wants them to be happy. In Hermias situation, it seems to be that her dad wants to be right more than he wants his daughter to be happy, but this may not be the case for Pyramus and Thisbe. Again, not that they are wrong, but sometimes drastic measures isn’t the best way to go about a situation.
Although both stories portray true love and the drastic measures that need to be taken to show this love, the stories are also slightly different. Pyramus and Thisbes story ends in death, and we are still unsure about how Hermia and Lysanders story ends. The story of Pyramus and Thisbe reminds me more of Romeo and Juliet, just due to the fact that both couples believed it was better to be together in death than to be separated alive. For Hermia, it seemed to be that she was the only one who was willing to die for love. Lysander, so far, is only around more moral support while Hermia is fighting with her family and for her life. In all three stories, the writers made it out that they either need to be together or people die. A question that should be asked about these storylines and plays is, why is death always the alternative?
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While reading Ovid’s telling of Pyramus and Thisbe, I interpreted a theme about love. That, if there is something restricting two lovers from loving each other, then a solution to solve that problem is to run away from it, just like in the play A Midsummer Nights Dream. On page 112 of Pyramus and Thisbe, the quote, “those two devised this plan: they’d circumvent their guardians’ watchful eyes and, cloaked by night, in silence, slip out from their homes and reach a site outside the city.” This quote shows that Pyramus and Thisbe decided to run away from home to be with each other because they believe that they truly belong together. However, these two ultimately pass away by the end of the story. This leaves a critical views of these two young lovers, because they didn’t run away from home, then they would have still been alive and found another solution. In the play A Midsummer Nights Dream, Lysander says, “From Athens is her house remote seven leagues; And she respects me as her only son. There, gentle Hermia, may i marry thee; And to that place the sharp Athenian law Cannot pursue us.”(1.1.159-63). Here, Lysander and Hermia plans to leave their homes just like Pyramus and Thisbe, showing that these two couples have similar morals, as true lovers should be together and not be determined through other peoples opinions or because of a feud between two families. This also suggests that there is a similarity in plot and imagery, since both of these couples are not given permission to be together, so they developed a plan to solve that problem.
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Pyramus and Thisbe mirrored the story of Romeo and Juliet (besides the provacative part with the wall), where two lovers, who are seemingly star-crossed lovers had made plans to sneak off somewhere and through some circumstances, both lovers ended up killing themselves. What had seperated Pyramus and Thisbe was a wall, with a tiny hole, where they had exchanged some “words of tenderness” and had proved to be an obstacle. Following the discovery of the wall and the hole, the lovers had said “‘O jealous wall, why do you block our path?” (Oved, 112), which personifies the wall. Obviously the wall can’t feel jealousy or any emotion, but this is where the similarities of A Midsummer Nights Dream is evident, as in the wall of this story is Egeus and Theseus, who had expressed displeasure in the relationship between Hermia and Lysander, had forbid Hermia from marrying Lysander, by even threatening to keep her as a virgin or to even put her to death, as evident when Theseus said “To fit your fancies to your father’s will; Or else the law of Athens yields you up…To death, or to vow of single life.” (1.1.118-121). Currently, we don’t know about the fate of Lysander and Hermia, but the idea that death had already been presented to Hermia as a choice can be foreshadowing the fact that a grim fate may fall upon her. Also in Pyramus and Thisbe, it also says that they had wanted to wed but their parents had forbid it, just like in Romeo and Juliet, where the Montagues (Romeo’s family) and the Capulets (Juliet’s family), who had a blood feud against each other had forbid each other from seeing each other. The parallel that is shown in both of these pieces of work and with A Midsummer Nights Dream, was that there was an authority figure that had forbid the love of the two protagonists. Finally there were heart-breaking endings to Romeo and Juliet and Pyramus and Thisbe, where they killed themselves to be reunited in the afterlife and to spend eternity with each other. Romeo drank a poison near Juliets deathbed because he truly thought she was dead. When Juliet woke and found Romeo dead, she unsheathed Romeo’s dagger and stabbed herself, just like how Thisbe found Pyramus dead near her and she also killed herself. Even though we didn’t finish A Midsummer Night Dream yet, Hermia expressed her idea of a “happy ending” when she had said “And in the woods, where often you and I….There my Lysander and myself shall meet; and thence from Athens turning away our eyes, To seek new friends and strangers companies.” (1.1.214-219)+
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Romeo and Juliet is ever more “provocative”… Romeo and Juliet spend the night together! The famous scene where they make their vow to run away takes place as Romeo is escaping in the morning after…. they spent the night together.
Sex is a normal part of life and it’s a significant part of romantic relationships, so if you’re reading a story about love, there’s probably sex in it.
It is interesting, though, how the same story (P&T) can inspire the same person (Shakespeare) to write two totally different types of plays, one a comedy and the other a tragedy.
I would have liked to see you write more about MND and less about ROM.
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The story of Pyramus and Thisbe definitely parallels the struggles of Hermia and Lysander. Both couples’ families disapprove of their love, and they must communicate secretly. Pyramus and Thisbe’s love, and lust, grew through the crack in the wall that their homes shared (p 111-12), and Hermia and Lysander exchanged poems and other tokens (1.1.28-34). Both couples also, believing they are the greatest lovers the Earth has ever seen, agreed to runaway together.
The couples begin to differ when considering their fate. Pyramus and Thisbe made their own destiny by ignoring their parents’ wishes, deciding to runaway together and killing themselves for each other. Although the two lovers were not able to “join their bodies,” the course of their love was on their terms: Pyramus decided to kill himself under the false belief that the love of his life was dead, and Thisbe followed suit (only Pyramus was actually dead). Conversely, Hermia and Lysander decided to runaway, which shows proactivity on their part, but their plans were thwarted in a case of mistaken identity (2.2.66-122). This, as our lovely Professor suggested in class, fortifies the idea that Hermia and Lysander are truly star-crossed, while Pyramus and Thisbe are just unlucky.
Given the circumstances, I would argue that Pyramus and Thisbe’s love is much more sympathetic than Hermia and Lysander’s. Sure, it’s unfortunate that magic got in the way of their love, but the fantastic involvement in Hermia and Lysander’s love implies that things would have never worked out between them; if it wasn’t Puck that inadvertently turned Lysander’s eyes towards Helena, it would be some other unearthly force that would have separated the lovers. Of course, the play has not finished yet, so perhaps there is still hope!
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Pyramus and Thisbe is not an uncommon love story for Shakespearean times — two young lovers whose parents hate each other make a plan to sneak off somewhere so they can be together end up killing themselves for love — quite similar to the plot of <i>Romeo and Juliet</i>, and slightly less similar to the story of Hermia and Lysander in A Midsummer Night’s Dream (hopefully). However, it is not this similarity that I would like to address. It is how Pyramus and Thisbe’s relationship fit in to the definition of love presented by Hermia and Lysander, and why this might be significant.
Hermia and Lysander believe that true love can be determined by whether the couple has gone through tribulations. As Lysander says, “for aught that I could ever read, could ever hear by tale or history, the course of true love never did run smooth” (1.1.132-4). This can be taken to mean that according to all of the stories he’s read about true love, both real and fictional, the couple always had some sort of problem that kept them from being together.
Pyramus and Thisbe fit this requirement, as they were unable to marry because they were “different in blood” (1.1.135), and once they sneak away they end up killing themselves for love, making their time together “brief as the lightning in the collied night” (1.1.145). Thus, according to Hermia and Lysander, the love between Pyramus and Thisbe was true.
However, given the fact that Hermia and Lysander base their knowledge of true love on books rather than personal experiences, and since Romeo and Juliet had not been written yet, it is not insane to suggest that Hermia and Lysander might have read Pyramus and Thisbe, and it is partially where they had gotten some of their information on love. However, in my opinion, Pyramus and Thisbe were rather dramatic and just a little bit foolish. Pyramus decided to take his own life rather rashly, jumping to the conclusion that Thisbe had been murdered only after seeing her bloodied shawl instead of looking for further confirmation, such as her body. Additionally, after he killed himself and Thisbe found him near death, she decided that instead of going back to her family and trying to get on with her life, she was going to kill herself as well. Thus, what does it about the love between Hermia and Lysander that they would theoretically cite such an inane story as one that exemplifies true love? I believe that it most clearly shows Hermia and Lysander’s immaturity. They are young and know far too little about love, which is why they believe that something like Pyramus and Thisbe would be a good example of it. This makes me question whether they should get married, even though I’m sure they will by the end of the play, because they don’t even really know what love is, much less if they feel it for each other.
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Have you ever seen that giant flash-mob proposal they did for some TV show a few years ago (it begins with a prank on the fiance that’s kind of cruel)? It’s crazy. Dozens of dances and props, all kinds of special effects. The woman tells her partner right from the start that she doesn’t want to be tricked and then ends up not only saying yes but actually getting married right there as part of the mob. Again, it’s crazy.
But why is it on TV? I bet tons of people thought it was romantic. I bet tons of people thought it was crazy and manipulative, too.
There’s a fine line, or maybe not even a line, between big, bold romantic gesture and foolishness (sometimes even downright aggression). Pyramus went down believing himself to be a hero and I’m sure someone will say he is, even if it was based on a mistake. We’re the ones who know that–he didn’t.
Can all lovers be heroes (just for one day), or are all lovers fools?
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The story of “Pyramus and Thisbe” shares many similar themes with “A Midsummer Night’s Dream.” One common theme would be the idea that star crossed lovers always have an obstacle standing in the way of their love. In both stories, it was the lovers parents that forbade them from being together. Another common theme, is the plan that the lovers in both stories formulate to run away from they’re parents/ higher authority.
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